Oblivion out of EQL3

2006-04-18 13:46 by sassa

Oblivion has been kicked out of EQL after getting their second warning.
They have been caught ghosting in their game vs SSC and all of their games will be deleted.
We have been talking about this case for 1 week now to gather all the information and have finally made a decision.

Some info about the ghosting that accured:

Fnosk joined their vent channel not knowing that it was a EQL game and helping his teamm8s during the first map (dm3). I saw/listen to this and took a talk with him in another ventrilo channel to ask him what he was doing and he answered me that it was not EQL, it was pracc.

Directly after he found out that it was a EQL game he told me that he was very sorry about what he did but he didnt knew it was EQL.

Even though he didnt knew, his teammates should have told him to go the fuck out of the vent channel or shut up and not give hints about the enemys.
This is their seccond warning (first warning was given when they played with hagge even though he wasent in their playerlist).

Many teams use mm3 and if you want to be sure that they dont cheat ask an admin to step i,n their vent channel and see how many ppl they got there.

Im very sorry to have lost a team like Obvilion in eql and hope that they will be back for EQL4.

/The EQL-team

Ghosts, like ladies, never speak till spoke to
- Richard Harris Barham

---

Comments

#251 2006-04-20 17:04 by goqsane (87.250.163.XXX)

I can't deny this, I can guess (based on my experience) that he really didn't mean to do it. I also faced that kind of situation more than a year ago with apocalypse, I was speccing a game + being in the same vent channel, I was just laughing from some funny situations but at some point I told them what was going on, that's when they told me they don't need that kind of help, and I realised I 'ghosted' unintentionally.

Fnosk did admit, but look how blantally this situation looks like compared to normal ghosting. I think he admitted this officially to point that out.

And I heard comments in IRC that I'm related with Oblivion, if you consider playing against Oblivion 2 times, not even remembering any nick apart from djevulsk then yes, I am highly bonded with that clan and I will defend its rights.

No, but seriously, I will always oppose acts of extreme stupidity

#252 2006-04-20 17:25 by ui (83.249.152.XXX)

#137 2006-04-18 18:45 by Hagge (83.233.145.XXX)

btw just have to add one thing.. when ilf and his clan whatever they now were called cheated ONLY ilf got kicked? but for this you kick a whole clan out of the league? guess aimbotting isn't an as serious "cheat" as accidently saying one thing in vent because you thought it's prac.. GG?

spot on, mate! \o/

oh, and btw: FLAMEWARZ FTW!!!

<3 goq for being sane (pun intended), <3 gaz for being objective, <3 trash for spicing things up

#253 2006-04-20 18:24 by Empezar (213.113.96.XXX)

@ cock: it's funny that you call sassa extremely stupid for having his revenge this way, while you still actually believe that this is sassas personal revenge against nqr admins.

#254 2006-04-20 18:28 by djevulsk (213.185.6.XXX)

I'd like to make one last comment on our behalf. I'd like to point out that this is my personal view on things. Most of these things have been said before, but i'm guessing there are people that doesn't feel like reading 252 comments (good job btw). And some people still seem to believe we "cheated" intentionally (eg ToT_error).

Now, about what we, Oblivion, fucked up:
We pracced that day and sometime fnosk went AFK and hagge took his place at the same time as we decided to play EQL vs SSC. I'd like to point out that when fnosk returned to vent he thought it was a prac, as it had been all day, and he had no reason to think otherwise. He stayed on vent listening/speccing and he obviously said some encouraging things. I took no notice of that, neither did nakoz or pepin (bvsmissen). Only hagge has said he thought about it, and that's probably because he's new in oblivion. I guarantee you, if you also had played 10000 rounds of qw with a friendly and encouraging guy like fnosk the last few years you would also consider his encouragement as normal as breathing. Now, Sassa eavesdropped on us (i have no objection to this, he's an eql admin and seeing as it is his server, he has the possibility to) and caught fnosk saying something (in a moment of excitement i suppose) about an enemy in lifts. I don't know what he said, i didn't even know he said ANYTHING remotely similar until i read his "confession" above. I also know, just like fnosk said, that none of us who were playing picked up on this "ghosting". He DIDN'T say anything else during the 10 minutes he was on vent for the first round, so there was NO planned ghosting taking place. Just one stupid comment, in a game he still thought was a prac. And NO we don't ghost in pracs either.

What EQL admins fucked up:
Sassa heard this comment and i FULLY UNDERSTAND AND SUPPORT a disciplinary action so I have no objection to this either. Would it have been the other way around i would have taken some kind of action as well. What i do object to is that he chose to "punish" us twice, once before SD got kicked out from NQR and once after. His first action was to discuss this with fnosk and they reached an agreement that it was a silly accident and oblivion would get an "unofficial" warning since sassa believed fnosk's story (who wouldn't). Sassa wouldn't go further with it and the whole thing was to be "forgotten". Nor did fnosk tell us anything about this "enemy in lifts" thing. Then it happened; nqr (with me as one of the admins) kicked out SD and suddenly the warning became VERY official. I SERIOUSLY doubt it had anything to do with EQL-admins "discovering" we already had a warning for playing with hagge in an earlier game. I'm positive oblivion would still play EQL today if SD hadn't been kicked from nqr.

I would also like to emphasize one strong argument in our defense. We recently switched to Sassa ventserver (and every other EQL-admin's ventserver) from having a private one before. And no, we didn't ghost on that one either. WHY oh WHY would we make that switch if we had ANY intention of cheating? We're seriously not that stupid.

To sum things up; A stupid mistake was done from our side, Sassa caught it and had every right to do something about it. What we're pissed about is how he handled it. The way i see it now though is; SD got kicked from nqr, and oblivion got kicked from eql. An eye for an eye, a clan for a clan. IMHO, i think we should just just leave drop whole matter and concentrate on more important (and more entertaining) things. If you think qw-drama is "all that" then get a fucking hobby.

Thanks to those who had the energy to read all this through and hasn't swallowed some of the bullshit that has been written previously in these comments. I hope to prac you soon, and before you make that hilarious joke: No, we won't ghost. // djevulsk

#255 2006-04-20 18:45 by nakoz (80.217.82.XXX)

very nice post dje.
thanks for summing things up in a great way.

#256 2006-04-20 18:46 by fnosk (130.240.202.XXX)

well written. thanks djevulsk! <3

#257 2006-04-20 18:52 by gaz (84.12.24.XXX)

I think Horatio brings up a very valid point about different levels of warning. Personally, if this had happened in NQR I would feel very uncomfortable with kicking a clan for a minor incident like this, even if it was related to a more serious action. I certainly wouldn't want it to go unpunished, and I think in this example a points deduction would have sufficed: the offenders would hopefully learn their lesson enough to not do it again and they would also have been punished.

I think the EQL crew need to reconsider this "two strikes and you're out" rule. There needs to be some kind of minor/major offence rule because as it stands a clan could be kicked out for a player using the wrong nick on two occasions - that strikes me as very unfair indeed.

The example manny used earlier is a good one - last season Lakso (who cycles between that nickname and Petter/Xtalon more often than I change my underwear) used one of his 3 nicks that wasn't on the EQL page and we were warned. Fair enough, rules are rules, but it would also have been very unfair on us if it had happened again and we had been kicked.

The punishment should fit the crime and I believe that in this Oblivion case and in the above example that it does not.

I have to say I also look more leniently on Oblivion's case because they have been honest about it - if you plead guilty a crime you are usually given a lighter sentence, and I think it would be right for the situation for their ban to be changed to a 3 points deduction (or similar).

#258 2006-04-20 18:54 by gaz (84.12.24.XXX)

As a further note I'd like to add some words once spake by the great Alexander Pope:

'To err is human, to forgive is divine'.

#259 2006-04-20 19:47 by goqsane (87.250.163.XXX)

Okay this is going to be my last post here, this is my personal opinion about what is this discussion about, proposed changes for the future to avoid such situations and something about relations between people.

To begin with, I believe that the action which has been taken by the EQL Admins is an act of revange for what happened to SuddenDeath during NQR. Why do I think so? Let me begin.

I really didn't know what was the mess about when Sassa asked me to make a .qw about the news here not mentioning him, I couldn't care less either, so I eventually did the .qw. I can't say I wasn't surprised by that, but I haven't been following what was going out throughout leagues and just thought Sassa was right. However, I read the comments and started feeling that something just went wrong. I made some conversations on IRC which lead me to the NQR site, and what did I just see, news about the fact that SuddenDeath is going to get banned from NQR for fakenicking (what lame of you guys). After that, I knew this was just a childish act of revange, started by Sassa, a crybaby that can't just handle the fact that a team in which one of the NQR admin plays in can continue their fun in a league where he is an admin. HOWEVER I had to make sure I was right. That's why I asked Oblivion about their views on the whole situation. I also had a discussion with Sassa, whose only argument was this statement 'But he convinced, read post #something'. I mean, seriously, (I know I am being repetitive, but I thought I could make a nice summary aswell) since when do you KICK a whole clan for the so-called ghosting, without even having proof? And the fact that he convinced should be taken as an act of honesty, which shows his intentions were clear, and he did not cheat. But why ever consider all that, when you can simply make a nice revange, 'why would kids play on my playground, when I can't play at theirs?' that's the question Sassa asked himself I may guess.

Now, about the avoiding part, when will you realise that the future of QuakeWorld is progress? I mean, conservatism is usually good, but we face new issues on daily basis, you do not fully realise of the consequences of keeping the status quo in nowadays QuakeWorld. The scene is really a lot more active than it used to be, there are more people who come from different videogames, with ideas on how to 'get better' and such. We really have to make these changes:

Introducing a streaming delay to the QuakeWorld would make it a lot harder (if not impossible?) for people to ghost. Ghosting may not be the issue with the high-div clans, but I do think that there are a lot of clans which are not controlled, which ghost. I believe 20-30 seconds stream delay would do the job very well. Now, I am not sure if QuakeTV is ready to be used / implemented to servers, but I think this is what the community needs right now. I believe it won't be a problem for it to be finshed soon, since almost everything is done by now, optimizations and some minor tweaks, then porting and I think it is going to be really good.

And now just a small summary. I think this was a really humiliating decision, and this humiliated the QuakeWorld scene overall, which is believed to be one of the most mature scenes throughout FPS ones. I seriously hope that Sassa will realise his lifetime mistake (regarding his QuakeWorld participations, I am not here to talk about real life since I have no idea about Sassa) and eventually will (along with the EQL admin crew) apologize Oblivion for the great damage. QuakeWorld is all about sportmanship, and this was surely not an act of it by Sassa, you can look up the Quote I made up, which is very accurate in my humble opinion. Sassa, I had great respect for you before, but now you are no more than a crybaby, and I don't care what you did for the community, this has made me think that you are destroying it right now.

End of Topic for me.

#260 2006-04-20 19:54 by goqsane (87.250.163.XXX)

convinced = confessed

#261 2006-04-20 20:13 by angua (82.182.32.XXX)

we are all divine for forgiving paradoks \o/

#262 2006-04-20 20:13 by skelman (70.57.155.XXX)

Are the eql admins going to look at this situation again, or is there no going back?

#263 2006-04-20 20:20 by goqsane (87.250.163.XXX)

LOL I promised I wouldn't talk here but this question is very interesting.

I don't believe there is any 'go-back' for them, because that would mean they agree they did something stupid, which is not acceptable for their little egos

#264 2006-04-20 20:20 by angua (82.182.32.XXX)

goqsane, quakeworld is not about sportsmanship if those who play it don't give a flying fuck about sportsmanship.

#265 2006-04-20 21:57 by c (213.65.179.XXX)

So much whine over some guys who breaks the rules, I quote para on this one "Obey the rules!" ffs..:p

#266 2006-04-20 22:02 by ui (83.249.152.XXX)

I do. Maybe I should become head admin?

#267 2006-04-20 22:30 by Hooraytio (212.214.218.XXX)

maybe its time to see quakeworld, that is eql, nqr, duelmania and every other qw compo for what it is: FOR FUN!

The ppl in charge of all this are putting so much work into all this and when something goes wrong it autmatically turns into a flamefest. When everything runs smooth its just like "yeah nice league whatever". Ppl will make mistakes and when they do please dont be so hard on them. This goes for kicking SD, kicking O but also for blaming the admins of the various leagues...

try for once to see it from another persone point of view

tho feel free to come with constructive criticism, such things always helps to improve both leagues and other teams efforts to become better. Point out what you think they did wrong and give them some good advice

i know i for one can be very mad and angry during games and i truly feel sorry for it. i am constantly trying to cool it but i know its not always that easy. if everyone strives towards the same goal, to make quakeworld more enjoyable it gets alot easier tho..

#268 2006-04-20 23:42 by deathwing (213.114.181.XXX)

haha, fags!

#269 2006-04-20 23:53 by Empezar (213.113.96.XXX)

goq, you could have just written "I am stupid" instead of that long essay..

#270 2006-04-21 00:42 by Sassa (213.113.96.XXX)

#8 hagge
he have been really mad at us since they got kicked out of nqr.. he blamed that on dje and now he's taking out his anger.. beware \o/ <-- again I did not blame dje anything..
#16 menth0l
This is a petty and childish act of revenge on Sassa's part, nothing more and I hope everyone recognises it as just that. <-- oh so it was a childish act of revenge?
#26 gaz
Another example of the EQL crew's amateurish approach to making things up as they go along... <-- im speachless
#43 hagge
that we DID NOT CHEAT to make it a bit clearer for you <-- so u did not ghost?
#66 JKova
...cases such as this result in arbitrary rulings of one or a couple power-seeking admins. <-- yeah we are powerseeking admins are we?

You all said from the start that I was making this up, that this was an act of revenge.
Im very sad that you guys didnt believe me from the start (well I can understand the oblivion players that might have not heard fnosk's "hint" and just was angry in frustation) but for the others im very dissapointed that you from a respected tourney writing that I have made this up, that this was an act of revenge.
its very low of you guys.. :(

When not believing me is just the same sort of way some russians are standing behind ilf.
what would happen if fnosk had lied and not be the honest man that he is?
would you still flamed me that I was making this all up?
what will happen with the next "ghosting" case we get, will you still not believe me then?

We hope that when the EQL post something you believe we are telling the truth and if you dont, then ask questions instead of making up false scenarios.

I know that hagge/nakoz/etc in oblivion wrote in the speed of frustation so its okey guys, I would probably done the same if it was a case like this with my clan.
but i can not back from what those NQR admins wrote :( !

I should have said this earlier, but b?ttre sent ?n aldrig, Im sry on behaf of me myself that I didnt look at the eql page and saw your warning. I should have done that better so we could have cleared this situation from the start. sorry about that Oblivion.

When fnosk came forward with this some of you still didnt believe us and thought it was an act of revenge.
I dont know how I can explain this better than, IT WASENT. It was an admin decision.
Thats again my words and if you dont believe what I say, then we will never agree.

We will not change our mind about this decision (sry) and thats again a EQL-ADMIN decision, its not a "sassa revenge", its the admins decision.

We like the input that you all have given to us and we will go through them for eql4.

ps. all we have is trust when we cant provide evidence and I hope that in the future no1 will say "it was a childish act of revenge" and just believe the admins specially!

(probably lots of typos etc..)

#271 2006-04-21 03:33 by error (213.114.99.XXX)

solid post djevulsk

You are right that it makes no sense for you to switch to a public server if you want to cheat.

But you did cheat. And of course it was intentionally. But maybe not planned.

I hope you are honest when you say oblivion has never cheated before, however unlikely.

#272 2006-04-21 07:15 by menth0l (82.181.141.XXX)

Yeah Sassa i'm sorry for that comment :) But you have to understand at that point there was no real evidence of any cheating whatsoever, and all the oblivion players denied the whole thing. That made me question the existence said evidence and your motives. I think the best thing to do now is to put these two incidents behind us and play some QW :)

#273 2006-04-21 09:17 by gaz (84.12.24.XXX)

I'm also sorry for that comment Sassa. I know the effort admins put into running leagues, sometimes people say things carelessly without thinking about the consequences :E At that point we hadn't heard from Fnosk or seen any evidence so surely you can understand skepticism over the decision.

Anyway I would be interested to hear your (or any other EQL admin's) thoughts on my comment #257.

#274 2006-04-21 09:39 by djevulsk (213.185.6.XXX)

I believe a great deal of the "revenge" part of all this is still valid. As i wrote above (before you flame me, read #254 about being punished twice) i do think oblivion would still be playing EQL if NQR hadn't kicked SD. You obviously didn't make this whole thing up, Fnosk is way to honest to let people think that, but you (as in all admins, BUT with sassa dealing with the situation) DID change a decision after SD wasn't allowed to play playoffs in NQR. Coincidence? You just happened to "stumble upon" our first warning about hagge? Forgive me, but I think not.

#275 2006-04-21 09:53 by Hooraytio (193.10.221.XXX)

#279 Sassa

#16 menth0l
This is a petty and childish act of revenge on Sassa's part, nothing more and I hope everyone recognises it as just that. <-- oh so it was a childish act of revenge?

In what way do you defend yourself here Sassa? By asking that question it merely seems you don?t have a good answer.

#276 2006-04-21 10:45 by Hagge (83.233.145.XXX)

#272 menth0l
"I think the best thing to do now is to put these two incidents behind us and play some QW :)"

sorry can't, I'm banned :( byebye qw :'(

#277 2006-04-21 11:17 by hagge (81.236.21.XXX)

fan hagge, du ?r slutat qw fler ggr ?n jag bytat boxer :)
puss ? kram

#278 2006-04-21 11:18 by lucky wilbury (81.236.21.XXX)

det var jag som postade ovan

#279 2006-04-21 13:44 by JKova (80.221.17.XXX)

I, also, am sorry for the comment I made before any evidence was presented and fully concur what menth0l and gaz wrote above.

#280 2006-04-21 14:20 by 1337 h4x0r (81.234.13.XXX)

j00 411 5uxxXXxX!11!!!

#281 2006-04-21 16:22 by fog (81.216.124.XXX)

Fix the comments on several pages instead please, this is pretty annoying :)

#282 2006-04-21 17:53 by ?ke Vader (217.210.101.XXX)

Response to Gaz about post #257:

I agree with those of you who think that we should have different levels of punishment and have brought up the
question among us before. For a decision to get changed it takes a majority of the admins to agree though, and we need to know that such a punishment system is prefered among the players. I really think that we need to consider this until next season though. In Oblivion's case i think that the Hagge incident wasn't that serious for example, but at the same time we should follow the rules etc. :I


Response to fog:

I have thought about this. Tonight i'm getting some booze and party though so maybe i'll do it tomorrow. :p

Love to all of you! <3

#283 2006-04-21 21:33 by -insane- (83.27.154.XXX)

I always knew sassa sux B|

#284 2006-04-21 22:42 by knast (84.147.7.XXX)

thats why we should not have 2 leagues in the same time:) its not a problem for the clans, i think its too much for the admin crews got headage stress and persecution complexes!
without sasse we would have no eql1 and eql2 ( u remember there were no other leagues at this time!)
at the moment i think about what will happen when there is a lan again and sassa and gaz (also some other guys) will come? what do u will do? running arround with a power saw?:) killing each other:)
come down u just write some comments because u want something read at work!

#285 2006-04-21 23:26 by ui (81.234.13.XXX)

You need to appreciate the demonic powers that fuel this flamewar. It's not just about making time at the office go a little faster...

It's about the forces of Hell itself uniting to kill Quakeworld. You puny mortals will fall before the might of teh flam0rz! :(

#286 2006-04-21 23:37 by manu (82.209.190.XXX)

lol

#287 2006-04-21 23:46 by Haggis (84.48.110.XXX)

Good thing about all this is that we get a debate going and some serious suggestions to make the league better. We get some shit and flame aswell, but hey, thats all part of the game, we get bored sick otherwise :)

So in that regard it's kinda good this happened, even though people disagree in the punishment against O.

But ffs, it's not a perfect world. People kill for less shit than qw, so everyone, take a deep breath, jerk off a couple of times while watching the skank Carola and have a few beers!

Personally i'll skip carola, im off to get wasted (almost 300 now guys)

#288 2006-04-22 00:30 by JKova (80.221.17.XXX)

btw oblivion's games have not been deleted yet and the table in div2b is fucked up. fyi, admins.

#289 2006-04-22 00:41 by qmole (193.108.218.XXX)

As we near the #300 mark, let's take a moment to reflect on this drama.

It seems the hate's died down now. The kick has been accepted, though I think everyone feels a little regret about the whole thing. Perhaps it was a bit harsh, perhaps not. Cheating's so rare in the qwscene that there aren't strict guidelines for when the rules are broken. You'd think that if a clan cheated twice they should be insta-banned, but in reality there's different levels of 'cheating' and Oblivion were caught by this.

I'm not sure a 'cheat-points' system would help either; ghosting's a serious offence, but unintentionally staying in a voice server isn't. Where do you draw the line? I think admins have to use their discretion in situations like this, and admit it's not always best to follow the rules to the letter.

So there's been some constructive discussion and even some apologies, which is nice to see. The scene would be *a lot* worse off without people like Sassa, gaz and all of the EQL/NQR/etc admins running the stuff we take for granted. Next time, I suggest giving them the benefit of the doubt before calling for their heads. Would you *really* rather they didn't contribute?

(well that's taken a while, are we on 300 yet?)

#290 2006-04-22 00:58 by willg (217.209.96.XXX)

the obvious problem nowdays is that the cheaterhunters nowdays go and make a dramtic public forum post, draw big headlines on the newspages naming and framing the ones condemnd. I think it would be a nice way to inform and discuss the topic with all involved first, before letting hoi polloi burn them on the forums. Just today def spent alot of his time investigating and writing a long forum post blaming the top quakers from an entire continent of cheating. He eventualy points out that it was unintentional, but the dammage is already done.

#291 2006-04-22 01:50 by gaz (84.12.24.XXX)

lol @ knast, just because I disagree with Sassa sometimes does not mean that I want to hurt him :) We are both adults and I'm sure we can both see this debate for what it is :)

#292 2006-04-22 02:29 by mae (85.216.82.XXX)

first of all i think you shouldnt punish that "ghosting" thing, not cos its not a kind of cheat, just becos u cant handle it... evryone can open a winamp stream
(and i dont think anyone will admit it in the future for sure anyways since this incident)

like the cl_clock command, evryone can use an external clock for timing too

i think football tells quite well how to handle that...

1. normal warning...
not so bad , smaller things...unintentionel almost...
unregged players(but already clanmembers) ,using wrong nicks (but regged players)
punishment.. lose points after x warnings

2. yellow card
intentional, but by one individual
fakers,bad behaviour towards opponent/admins etc.
punishment... replay game/lose points/kick the cheater

3. red card aka 2 yellows
bots,wallhacks,etc.+many of the clans knew about this
punishment: kick the clan

in football u consider here 2 things...
was it turning around the score and was it extremly unfair ...

and u should only ban the clan if its clear that many of them tolerated /were involved into cheating

--> show a bit of sure instinct, in football a too strict ref can fuck up all the fun too...like send someone off the field when HE GOT SPIT :(

4. lifetimeban if u spit on rudi v?ller?s hair :)

#293 2006-04-22 05:58 by vb (211.30.158.XXX)

7 to go

#294 2006-04-22 11:20 by trash (81.235.129.XXX)

#294

#295 2006-04-22 12:54 by Hagge (83.233.145.XXX)

I want to congratulate trash for all the effort he must've put in to be able to figure out which number his post had, keep up the good work mate! \o/

#296 2006-04-22 13:09 by goqsane (87.250.163.XXX)

while I can agree with mae about the warning system I can't accept his understanding of ghosting. Gameclocks do not affect the gameplay as much as ghosting is, it is inevitable to make an open discussion about it, but the way you see it is totally wrong :>

#297 2006-04-22 14:23 by Kalma (88.112.65.XXX)

300 posts with just two football analogies?

#298 2006-04-22 14:49 by aikon (213.113.64.XXX)

new comment record ?

#299 2006-04-22 15:08 by HighlandeR (193.219.28.XXX)

and the winner of the 300posts competition is :

#300 2006-04-22 15:09 by HighlandeR (193.219.28.XXX)

ME !

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